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Laying the Foundation, Part 2

Hi-Fi 2.0So, what effect did replacing my Yukon's factory radio with the Alpine have on the rest of the factory system? (See Part 1 for background.) It really notched it up, no kidding. Fatter bass, more dimensionality and presence. The kinds of things you'd associate with a cleaner signal path and better amplification -- all vastly superior in the aftermarket head unit. Although I did discover that this particular Yukon's factory system contains outboard amplification (not the well-known Delco/Bose® system, which would have required an OEM interface adapter in order to use the CDA-9887). That means that the factory system is re-amplifying the signal (as well as noise and distortions) coming off of the new receiver's speaker outputs. To my way of thinking, it's a testament to the cleanliness of the Alpine's audio circuitry that there was still such a dramatic improvement in sound quality.

iPod nanoI've been using my iPod nano quite a bit with this new rig. Typically, I'll load in my tunes as lossless 16-bit .wav files (homey doesn't do lossy file formats when engaging in critical listening) and navigate them with the 9887. (Note: I have to downconvert my 24-bit mixes in iTunes, because the nano won't play them. I assume it won't be long before Apple releases upgraded firmware that will accommodate even higher resolution files.) The CDA-9887's iPod navigation system is so impressive for a car stereo, it's worth mentioning here. Just as when I use my iPod by itself, I can browse by Playlist, Artist, Album, Song, Podcast, Genre, and Composer. If I want to, I can scan my full library and access songs directly; I can even skip over dozens of them at a time with a cool feature called Percentage Search.

iPod Control CableFrom a sound quality perspective, hooking up the iPod with the Alpine Control Interface cable  allows the nano to feed digital information directly to the Alpine's high-end digital-to-analog converter -- bypassing its own DAC and its relatively noisy internal headphone amp -- for smoother, more nuanced sound. Essentially my iPod functions as a fully controllable external hard drive that I can load down with large .wav or .aiff files and still have room for a big chunk of my iTunes collection.

Not that I listen for pure enjoyment much in the car. Mostly, I use my commuting time to listen to our CD-under-construction in order to make mixing decisions. By the time I get back into the studio for another crack at a mix, I have a pretty good idea of what needs to be done. If I really need to concentrate, there are a couple of nice parks I drive to, where I switch off the engine and settle back and listen.  Sometimes, these moments even trigger ideas for changes to arrangements and/or orchestrations.

The repeat play feature comes in very handy when evaluating mixes; I might need to listen to a track repeatedly over many drives (it's probably best I travel alone, huh?). I find Shuffle to be a very useful playback mode, as well. Hearing our compositions in random order gives me an idea as to how well the tunes stand on their own, without dependency upon what precedes or follows them. Alas, an artist can't assume that listeners will be hearing a group of songs as an interdependent work of art these days. It's a good thing Abbey Road came out in 1969.


 


Posted Mon, Jan 26 2009 6:26 PM by MLS

Comments

Dave R. wrote re: Laying the Foundation, Part 2
on Tue, Jan 27 2009 4:17 PM

Really have enjoyed this string of thought.  I purchased the Alpine 9887 based on your recommendation and my own research.  I am looking forward to moving forward with your build as I move forward with mine.  

My largest concern/desire is to acquire the IMPRINT technology.  I have read a few blogs concerning the best set-up.  I wonder if this is something that has to be done multiple times to get the best quality or if it is a one time deal.

Looking forward to reading about your trials.

d

John R. wrote re: Laying the Foundation, Part 2
on Sun, Feb 1 2009 1:57 PM

MLS, intrigued with the first paragraph...You're taking the speaker level outs of the Alpine into a factory amp, instead of direct to the speakers... Did I read that right?

MLS wrote re: Laying the Foundation, Part 2
on Wed, Mar 11 2009 3:39 PM

Great question, John - and so sorry it's taken me weeks to respond. Somehow I wasn't able to find submitted comments in our system. Situation rectified and going forward, I will respond quickly.

Yes, the existence of factory amplification is a little fact that I stumbled upon while installing the Alpine. I hadn't bothered to connect the amp turn-on lead from the CDA-9887's wires to the harness that plugs into the factory jack, because 1)  I had no reason to believe there was a factory amp in the Yukon and 2) because I knew I'd be having to run a turn-on wire to the aftermarket amps at a later date. I connected the Crutchfield-supplied harness to the factory harness and turned the key, confident I had wired everything correctly, and ... no sound. So I disconnected the harness, went back to the work bench, connected the blue turn-on wire and everything worked.  That tells me there's definitely an amp in the system somewhere.

Now, generally speaking, a person doesn’t want to re-amplify an amplified signal (in this case, the factory amp is cranking up sound that has already been amplified by the radio's internal amp section) without first "stepping down" the signal to preamp level. As you apparently know, one may run the risk of overheating and destroying that first amplifier in the chain. And in many similar cases – notably the Delco/Bose® factory system option for this very vehicle -- Crutchfield offers OEM adapters that resolve the issue. But in this case, such an adapter is not needed; the factory amplification is not powerful enough to cause thermal damage to an aftermarket receiver.  All you have to do is match up the new receiver’s wiring with the factory wiring (a potentially tedious task rendered quick and easy with our vehicle-specific wiring harnesses) and you’re good to go.

The reason I was surprised to discover this scenario in the first place is that I was operating under a faulty assumption: that the presence of factory amplification is a surefire indicator of a Delco/Bose system. As I had seen no Bose logo anywhere in the car, I decided not to connect the blue wire to the harness. After consulting our most seasoned technician, I have learned that for this particular vintage of Yukon, GM offered three audio system packages: a base level (no subwoofer, no external amplification), an upgraded level (sub and amp) and the Delco/Bose system (sub, amp, upgraded/expanded speaker system).  

Good “catch,” John; I shouldn't have let that go without an explanation.

MLS wrote re: Laying the Foundation, Part 2
on Wed, Mar 11 2009 4:33 PM

Same apology to John R. extends to you, Dave. I also just discovered your post.

But as you know, we subsequently exchanged emails on this subject, and you kindly agreed that we could publish the email thread for public edification. We can pretend it was the series of blog posts you intended.

Dave wrote (no doubt after giving up on ever seeing his post answered):

I have been following your blog and have installed my own 9887 and have

gone through the Imprint cycle.  Are you having as much trouble getting

the best sound out of your unit as everyone else seems to be?

I have reviewed the info on the DIY forum and this forum and have tried

all of the "tricks" to get more bass out of my system.  There is no

doubt that after imprint I am getting a better sound, just not enough

bass.

Have you had the same experience?  

Thanks,

Dave

PS. I have thought about dropping some Kenwood 4" components in the front to get more bass.  Thoughts?

My response:

Hey, Dave:

Thanks for contacting.

Yeah, I've seen that it's been problematic for some people. Actually, I'm holding off on Imprint until the full system is installed.

I'm still at the stage of the last blog post -- just the 9887 into the factory system.

What's your bass setup, and in what car?

-- Mike

Dave wrote:

I have a kicker CV12 for a sub with an Orion CO500.1 pushing it.  My back speakers are Kicker 6930 3 way, and in front Kicker 4" KS400.  I think my biggest problem is two-fold. 1 - I am not driving my 6x9 with an amp yet. 2

- I am driving a 93 Saab 900 that positions the front speakers up high on the dash and relatively close to me as the driver.  The imprint seems to have done a decent job at blending the sound, but just can't seem to defeat the front sound from the speakers.  I have played with my sub gain, and still have a little room to push it.  

I am not really sure what I expected in this set up.  I guess I had hoped for a bit more bass and better blending.

-- Dave

I wrote:

That's pretty interesting. I think you're right on with respect to the

6x9 power -- one would think that would bridge the gap.

How is the system crossed over-- what are the low-pass settings for the sub and do you have a HP on the KS400s? And do you find the 400s to be blaring -- irrespective of the bass issue? I gather from your note that you've been messing around with the fader some ...?

If you're using the sub as a true *sub,* meaning subtone bass and steeply rolling of above that point (more like a typical home or studio setup -- say @ 50-70 Hz or so), then it's the kind of thing you won't really notice until you defeat it and then it's like, "hey, what happened?" As long as your mid bass is handled elsewhere adequately (your 6x9 power issue), that kind of setup can render pretty optimum hi-fi response. If you're looking for more articulated bass notes from the sub itself, then try dialing up the xover point.

This might be completely basic stuff to you -- not sure what you've tried so far.

I don't think adding the Kenwoods will do much to address this issue.

Let me know what you're thinking.

--Mike

Dave wrote:

We have just about reached the limit of my audio knowledge. However, let me spew forth some of the literature that accompanied my sub - The low-pass crossover is active with a 2nd order (12dB per octave) slope.  The low-pass crossover is continuously variable from 50Hz to 500Hz.

Yes the 4" blare.  Unfortunately, when in the Imprint mode, you are unable to adjust for/aft fader. I am able to essentially adjust three items at the HU - sub woofer, bass and treble.  You lose the ability to use left/right and fore/aft as it is set/blended in the Imprint process.

I don't have an HP on the 4's . . I know that because I don't know what a HP is.  I had the opportunity to increase my gain significantly on a recent errand and it really helped.  However, it is overpowering and I am going to have to back it off some.  I really believe that the answer lies in the 6x9's filling that middle ground.

I have a feeling you are on to something with the front 4's. What are you thinking?

d

I wrote:

HP = high-pass filter. Meaning, you can start rolling off bass frequencies at a given point. The 9887 actually has one built-in. From our hands-on research tab:

>High Pass Filter: The front and rear speaker outputs or line-level outputs can be set to filter out low frequencies below 20 to 200 Hz with a slope of Flat, 6, 12, 18 or 24 dB/oct. In addition you can adjust the output level from -12 to 0 dB.

Try messing with it, if you feel the front speakers are trying too hard to reproduce bass and delivering some distortion or too much honk in the mids.

As I said, I haven't yet tried Imprint, and while I figured manual EQ adjustment might not be possible simultaneously, I'd be surprised if fade were disabled, as there are lots of practical reasons someone might need to adjust fade that have nothing to do with sonics (like kids needing to sleep in the back seat, etc). Are you absolutely sure -- did you check the manual? If you bought it from us, you can call our technicians.

Yeah, you might need outboard power (an amp) to drive the 6x9s, I think -- for smoothness in the overall midrange in the vehicle.  

Have a great weekend,

Mike

Dave followed up:

Please ignore my earlier comments in regard to fade and balance.  Upon some time in my car this evening, I realized what I said earlier re: not being there, was completely incorrect. Duh!

I think I have this thing dialed in.  Fading to back really helped the bass and decreased the front blast from the 4".

Anyway . . .

End of email exchange.

Thanks a lot for the thread, Dave, and keep us posted.

As for me, I have an imminent date with a lot of Dynamat and wiring gear. Look for a new entry soon.

Nelson wrote re: Laying the Foundation, Part 2
on Mon, May 4 2009 9:30 PM

I have a 2001 Yukon and im running into the same problem with the radio connections. you said "connected the blue turn-on wire and everything worked." just wondering what did you connect the blue wire too?

thanks for any help

Twitted by CrutchfieldBlog wrote Twitted by CrutchfieldBlog
on Fri, May 8 2009 3:47 PM
MLS wrote re: Laying the Foundation, Part 2
on Mon, May 11 2009 3:04 PM

Hi Nelson,

I meant that I connected the blue wire to the corresponding wire on the harness we have for the 2002 Yukon:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_120701858/Receiver-Wire-Harness.html?search=120701858&tp=2977

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