Had such good luck with info from Tiger Heli and Ninja 1234 thought I'd try again; let's just say it's a tough week electronically.
I live in an area of constant power surges, brown outs and brief outages. There is a backup generator (on a 2 second delay) in case of blackouts and professionally installed surge protectors as well. Over the years, my AV system has grown to include an HTS 5100 line conditioner, an AVS 2000 voltage stabilizer, and a UPS 1000 battery supply. The UPS worked fine for about a year, but now blips out and needs a power reset constantly. Last time, not even that worked (battery fault indicator light stayed on), though I was able to get power back the following day through sheer luck and a reset.
So, now that I've been doing the homework I should have done before, I have questions about what has already been installed in my (oversized) home AV system.
If both the Monster AVS 2000 with its onboard transformer and the Monster HTS 5100 protect against surges and condition the flow, are they redundant?
If not, and given the gazillion available outlets the combined 2 units offer, should the 5100 be plugged into the 2000 or the other way around?
If using both is advisable, then does it matter which is the primary, direct "plug-in" source for the individual AV components (preamp, mixer, amp, CD players, cable box, receiver, etc.) since both power units offer digital and analog outlets as well as switched and unswitched options or is it advisable to divide the power drain by using both components as sources?
And, finally, does all of this make the UPS meaningless? I seem to have burned out the UPS 1000 battery in less than a year and it has actually required more babysittin and resets of the system than before the UPS unit was installed. Is it likely that the UPS just can't handle the load and is not necessary for protection or ease of use?
Sorry for the overabundance of questions, but before I either take the UPS out of the chain and plug the HTS into the AVS, zap myself into smoke, or decide to call in the pros, I'd like to be semi-literate. Any replies welcomed, and thanks...
Unfortunately, this is not my area, JerSulley, Srothfuss, or Alex W (currently vacationing) could probably advise you better.
What I can tell you:
Here is what I can tell you from personal experience (some of it may be helpful):
Hope This Helps!!!
Anyone else have suggestions?
2002 Ford Focus Sony CDX-GT410u Sony XT-100HD HD Tuner Stock speakers, no amp, no subs
TH, you're everywhere and helpful, thanks.
The AVS 2000 is, at least primarily, a voltage stabilizer while the HTS 5100 is a line conditioner. Both, however, promote "clean" power, separate digital and analog options, switched and unswitched outlets, and surge suppression, so I'm guessing that there is a right sequence and a wrong sequence for using both components...assuming they aren't redundant. (BTW, were is the CF article you mentioned? I'd like to read it.)
I understand and agree with everything you said about the usefulness of a UPS and the fact that minutes can make a big difference, I've just been trying to figure out if any "retail" UPS is going be able to handle the power requirements of an oversized AV system. I'm only trying to bridge the gap between the power going out and the generator going on in the event of a blackout lasting over a few seconds, but it seems the UPS is triggering off at the slightest provocation thus requiring the manual reset. Your example of the overvoltage situation in your new house could be on the money...now I just need to figure out how to raise the cut-in trigger to see if the same solution works for me.
Again, thanks.
rover3d:The AVS 2000 is, at least primarily, a voltage stabilizer while the HTS 5100 is a line conditioner.
I like to oversimplify things that confuse me - the AVS 2000 basically keeps your supply voltage around 120 and the HTS 5100 filters out noise and power surges, from what I can tell.
(BTW, were is the CF article you mentioned? I'd like to read it.)
Errm, it wasn't really an article - on the AVS 2000 Overview, CF says this:
To enjoy ultimate power conditioning and protection for a truly massive system, use the AVS 2000 in conjunction with a Monster PowerCenter™ like the HTS5100MK2 (which offers coax and phone line protection, along with superior EMI/RFI noise filtration).
I understand and agree with everything you said about the usefulness of a UPS and the fact that minutes can make a big difference, I've just been trying to figure out if any "retail" UPS is going be able to handle the power requirements of an oversized AV system. I'm only trying to bridge the gap between the power going out and the generator going on in the event of a blackout lasting over a few seconds,
They make pretty big retail UPS's, but we have maybe a slightly different view of things and or a slightly different situation. For me, power outages tend to occur along with lightning storms in the area. In this case, I am going to shut down and UNPLUG the computer or AV system - the UPS is just if I don't have enough warning to do that elegantly. Now, all most surge suppressors use an air-gap, and there is no air-gap that will protect from a direct lightning strike that is traveling miles through the air as it is.
now I just need to figure out how to raise the cut-in trigger to see if the same solution works for me.
Two thoughts -
Well, for what it's worth, here's my take....
It sounds like you have a pretty decent investment and are atempting to avoid catastrophe, I can really appreciate that, and am probably "under protected" in my own equipment...I am fairly certain that you are probably protected quite well by the Clean Power solutions, and your power equipment will probably be ok in a spike, or 'brown-out" situation...However, anything that requires a fan or other "cooldown" solutions would need the UPS...Display devices, (Specifically DLP's, Projectors, etc...), HTPC's, Power Amps... You DEFINITELY need time for the fans to get the bulbs, CPU's, and amps, to temp. I guess I would put all that stuff "outside the loop" of the other groups...
Planar PD 7060 Projector Technics SH AC 500D KLH R 5100 5.1 Onkyo DVCP 701 6 disc Xbox 360/ Orig. Xbox/Softmodded Paradigm Focus B and CC 270 Dayton "Tiny Mighty" 10" subwoofer Bose 201 v 5
I've refrained from posting since I am not experienced enough to offer advice in the UPS / Surge protection area of HT equipment. As evidenced by the gear I currenlty own - it's not worth protecting.
On the battery problem with the UPS. Have you tried fully draining the battery on a piece of equipment (say run a old junky computer) and then seeing if the battery will recharge / reset? This works with cell phone batteries that won't hold a charge - so if the UPS battery is of similar chemical make up it could work. HOWEVER - I haven't ever tried it and it's just a thought.
When it comes to a UPS, replacement batteries are typically more expensive than a new unit but then again I'm not really informed enough in this area.
Current Gear: Sammy DLP Sony DVD [pre-HDMI] Sony STR-DE 995 Sony speakers
Each anomaly requires different solutions often addressed in different locations. For example, are your lights dimming or brightening by 40%? Then any voltage variations are perfectly normal and acceptable to electronics. Whereas such variations can may be harmful to electric motors, that same variation is perfectly acceptable to electronics. Worry more about motorized appliances.
If voltage is 130 or 135 VAC, then incandescent bulbs are failing 3 or 4 times faster. IOW a bulb rated for 500 hours would only last maybe 150 hours. Instead of lasting maybe four months, it burns out in 40 days. A benchmark for answering these questions. Is voltage too high? Or do lights glow 40% dimmer? If not, voltage is also not too low.
Worse - do lights change intensity drastically? If not, you never needed a voltage stabilizer. If yes, then a serious household wiring problem may exist that should be fixed immediately. A human safety threat that should be addressed - not masked by a voltage stabilizer or UPS.
How to select a UPS. Total up wattages (listed next to its power cord) for all appliances. Since UPSes typically have batteries only intended to last three years, better is to at least double the battery size required. If your electronics total to 300 watts, then your UPS should be 600+ watts so that fast battery degradation takes longer. So that minor battery degradation does not cause failures in six months.
UPS can switch over on numerous anomalies that are not low or high voltage. Just because a UPS switches to battery backup mode means it could be confused even by noise. Utility voltage is fine.
None of those Momster devices claim effective protection. They claim subjective protection - mostly from anomalies that are not hardware harmful. History of Monster products are routinely associated with scams. Monster has a long history of identifying such scams, then selling products at highest prices. (Did you see $7 speaker wire sold by Monster Cable for $70 - because speaker wire has polarity?) The naive assume higher price means better quality. Fancy paint and complex expressions (ie analog and digital inputs) get the naive to further believe their myth.
A simple question to answer. Where do Monster Cable spec numbers list each type of surge and protection from that surge? It does not and never will. It does not claim to protect from the typically destructive type of surge - in specs. The only protection claim is subjective - mostly about protecting from a surge that does not cause damage.
Effective protection is defined by professionals who first state what a protector does. Because of where it is located, you must assume Monster will stop, block, absorb, arrest, or suppress surge energy. It does not. But that is what so many are told to believe. From the NIST (US government research agency):
> You cannot really suppress a surge altogether, nor "arrest" it. What these
> protective devices do is neither suppress nor arrest a surge, but simply
> divert it to ground, where it can do no harm.
Your Monster protector has no short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth. How does it protect? Somehow it must 'arrest' or block a surge. Or just make surge energy magically disappear. It does the same thing as a $7 protector selling in the grocery store. But because it sells at $100+ and claims mysterious functions, many consumers believe what the salesman says.
Because it profit margins are so high, the salesman may spend more time selling the Monster than selling anything else.
How to identify the ineffective protector? 1) No dedicated wire for that 'less than 10 foot' connection to earth ground. 2) Manufacturer avoids any discussion about earthing. No earth ground means no effective protection. NIST also defines that Monster protector in the last sentence:
> A very important point to keep in mind is that your surge protector will
> work by diverting the surges to ground. The best surge protection in
> the world can be useless if grounding is not done properly.
No earthing means no protection. Superior protection means a protector connects as short as possible to earth ground with increased separation between the protector and electronics. Both are defined by a concept called wire impedance.
How badly do you need protection? Any protection provided by that voltage stabilizer or HTS5100 is already inside electronics. You need protection from the rare anomaly that occurs maybe once every seven years and that can overwhelm existing protection inside all appliances. If you need protection for AV appliances, you also need protection for everything else. Superior protection for all is one ‘whole house’ protector connected to what actually provides the protection: single point earth ground.
So, do you have massive voltage variations? If not, a voltage stabilizer does nothing useful. Anything that voltage stabilizer would do is already inside electronics. If massive voltage variations exist, then a human safety problem may exist. Must be addressed; not cured by a stabilizer.
Is your voltage too high or too low? Not a problem for properly designed electronics. But a greater threat to motorized appliances. High voltage also means incandescent bulbs fail significantly often.
Do you have surge protection? The effective 'whole house' protector is located within feet of earth ground. Same earthing electrode that all incoming utility wires must connect to (either directly or through a 'whole house' protector). One effective 'whole house' protector means surge energy does not even enter the building. Does not also threaten bathroom GFCIs, furnace, smoke detectors, and the dishwasher.
Surge protector is because everything needs the effective protector – which Monster Cable does not provide. Superior protection (costing about $1 per protected appliance) is one 'whole house' protector that actually does protect from all types of surges. Responsible manufacturers of effective protectors are names that any informed homeowner would know – GE, Siemens, Keison, Cutler-Hammer, Leviton, Intermatic, or Square D – to name but a few. Products sold by those who sell circuit breakers and electrical boxes. Of course, earthing must also be upgraded to meet and exceed post 1990 National Electrical code. Why? Because a protector is only as effective as its earth ground.
I'll take a swipe at this.
I would worry more about effectiveness than redundancy. When it comes to surge protection, form should follow function, and flash should take a back seat (no pun intended). If you are spending more to protect your theater components that the local hospital spends to protect their MRI machine you should have hard engineering data about the specific performance parameters of the devices you are using.The Monster product may well have some advantages, but as mentioned elsewhere, I have not seen any specific engineering data that supports their effectiveness as surge protection devices.
As mentioned in an earlier post, a surge panel at the service entrance should be your first line of defense:
http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=22336&minisite=10028
Back that up with point of use protection such as surge receptacles or surge strips that provide all of the technical specifications related to their performance and their limitations.
There are many reputable companies making surge protection devices. I point to Leviton because I have first hand knowledge of their engineering and quality control related to surge protection. The Leviton website also has plenty of resources available if you want to learn more about surge protection.
As a general rule of thumb I wouldn't suggest daisy-chaining devices with multiple outlets.
See above.
And, finally, does all of this make the UPS meaningless? I seem to have burned out the UPS 1000 battery in less than a year and it has actually required more babysitting and resets of the system than before the UPS unit was installed. Is it likely that the UPS just can't handle the load and is not necessary for protection or ease of use?
If you want the UPS to bridge the gap between the time you lose power and the time when the generator kicks in, regardless of whether the components are on or off, you will need a considerable amount of capacity if you have a lot of high-demand devices. You will need to do some calculations to determine the proper size, type, and capacity of the backup device for your needs.
Alex W:You will need to do some calculations to determine the proper size, type, and capacity of the backup device for your needs.
And add a healthy fudge factor!!!
As I said, I am running an APC 550 UPS - it's an older model of this - I don't know, but I doubt the PC and CRT (17-inch) are drawing more the 300W average combined. I think the side of the box said it should run about 20 minutes with a 17-inch CRT and PC. Their new chart says it should run 10 minutes. This chart says about 3 minutes, and that's about what I get - just enough time to click save and close in 2-3 apps and shutdown - hopefully ....